Debate 2 - Is Uni worth it? 18th Jan 09

[Aled]

This Sunday's show will have Anthony and Charlotte from BBC Revealed to debate things!

This week, is University worth it and should Obese people pay for medical services as some people are suggesting!

This Sunday from 10pm on Radio 1

[Andrew80]

Very interesting topics.... I feel a phone call coming on..........

[postie]

very messy debate i can see it will anger quite a few on this subject
but if you were to charge obese then i think it will follow with things like drug addicts and alcoholics pay for there own treatment
where do you draw the line
besides there would be a huge amount of discrimination cases happening if they did charge the obese which is why it will never happen or unless they throw huge taxes on unhealthy food which in a way would be a kind of charge it self

[Ajayrious]

I think its basic human rights in the 21st century that people should be entitled to free healthcare,

[Aled]

From BBC News:

The rising levels of obesity could bankrupt the NHS if left unchecked, a British Medical Journal report warns.

Experts, including government A&E tsar George Alberti and Glasgow University professor Naveed Sattar, said obesity treatment took up 9% of the NHS budget.

But they warned this would rise as the number of obese adults rose from one in five to one in three by 2010.

[Andrew80]

Tax fatty foods - and I say that as a fatty

[Yudster]

I think its basic human rights in the 21st century that people should be entitled to free healthcare,
But there's no such thing. Ultimately someone somewhere will have to pay, whether its by centrally collected contributions like the NHS, direct payment or indirect (insurance) payment. Medical science is an expensive entity, if we want it to be worth having, it needs to be paid for at some stage of the process.

As far as directly charging people who are deemed to have knowingly and therefore deliberately contributed to their own health problems, well, I don't really like the idea but I can see it happening in some form or another, probably quite soon.

It really all depends on how the crucial decisions are made - there's a difference between saying to a person - "sorry, you're a drug addict/obese person/smoker, so you will have to pay for your own treatments", which would be absolutely wrong in my view - or alternatively saying "ok you addict/obese person/smoker, you have been offered a practical programme of help and support to enable you to overcome your addiction/etc, and you haven't taken advantage of it even though you have been given every opportunity. You have to pay for your own treatment".

I don't like either scenario, but I could see a case being made for something along the lines of the second one. I really can't see how it could be effectively implemented though.

[Andrew80]

We tax cigarettes and alcohol for there negitive externalities and the open market allows this so there is no reason that if anything with over 2% of your daily fat/salt allowance is sold there is a tax on it too???

[postie]

the fat tax would be good but id say reduce the cost of healthy foods so the option would benefit people a great deal

[Andrew80]

Fair point - so fat tax - thin benefit?

[Yudster]

I think it would be the absolute best solution - but you'll still have the problem of getting people to choose a healthy option over a non-healthy one, even if it's expensive. Think about it - statistically I think I'm right in saying that the majority of smokers in the UK are firmly in the lowest income brackets. High cost is no deterrent for many people.

How would you tackle that one? After what he achieved with Moylesie, I'd be inclined to get Jamie Oliver on the case full time!

[Andrew80]

Sir Jamie Oliver
Minister of Food and Diet

[Chongster]

I don't have much of anything to add to this NHS debate, but as for whether university is worth it? I know it was for me, I wouldn't be in the job I'm in now without it.

I think whether University is 'worth it' or not is down to the person whether they're going to spend their time there benefitting from their course, or just wasting it away. I knew so many people there doing 'psychology' or 'Sports science' (not that I'm knocking psychology or sports science) just so they could have the university experience, and are now not wanting to do anything at all with their degree they've managed to scrape. Of course, some people choose their courses, and realise that's not what they want to do afterwards.

Ooh, I'm ranting now, but it really bothered me in University when people refered to my course (Computer Animation) as a Mickey Mouse course, that it's piss easy, and isn't a real course... it's not easy! Creating a convincing animation, suprisingly, is very hard. Takes a CRAP load of time, and is very frustrating! Thankfully I love doing it more than anything, but yeah, it bothers me when people shoot it down! Of course it's not as 'important' as other career paths, but it's certainly a valid one.

[Yudster]

Of course it's not as 'important' as other career paths.........
You think? Have you had a look at Pixar's balance sheet lately?!

I know a lad called Ben who is doing something similar - he is only in his second year I think and he is already making a name for himself in the industry. He's headed for special things I reckon.

[Samual]

If obese people shouldn't be entitled to NHS medical services neither should smokers, binge drinkers, drug users, etc etc

I dont see how you can debate whether university is worth it or not, its subjective. A more interesting debate would be, why isn't university free like in other European countries?

[Yudster]

I agree with both those points.

As to the debate on the cost of university education, I wasn't aware that university is free throughout Europe, it would be interesting to see how the various systems in other countries are funded in order to achieve that. I fully accept that there will be costs to be incurred in supporting oneself at university, and no-one should expect state handouts to simply cover that - but tuition fees are an abomination. My daughter wants to go to uni in Scotland where it is different - although not for that reason,as I suspect you have to be resident to qualify for the no-fees dealio.

[bbb]

my younger bro is at uni/tec over here he was at queens uni but now hes at bangor tec doing the same course at a higher level

and my word at the cost myself and my mum and dad have been giveing him money for the past few years is it any wonder that most people by the end of there uni course they have such huge debts that in most cause there family stpes in to take the tab so to speeak

I did know it was free throughout Europe but like yudim not sure how its funded

I only knew because of a few of my online friends are at uni in europe

its probly stae funded menaing probly higer taxes than over here who knows

[Kate]

We have free Third Level Education here. It's a good system, as it means that as long as you get enough points in your Leaving Certificate (our equivalent to A-Levels) then you can go to University regardless of your background or whether your family is particularly wealthy or not.

Another difference is that (I think) most Universities in the UK make you attend an interview before offering you a place on a course, where as here, apart from with a small number of courses, your offer of a place is based solely on you achieving enough points in your exam for the particular course you want to do, so there are no interviews. Obviously the points needed to do medicine or engineering etc. are far higher than those that would be needed to do courses that will lead to lower income jobs. But overall I think it's quite a level playing field.

[Samual]

As to the debate on the cost of university education, I wasn't aware that university is free throughout Europe, it would be interesting to see how the various systems in other countries are funded in order to achieve that. I fully accept that there will be costs to be incurred in supporting oneself at university, and no-one should expect state handouts to simply cover that - but tuition fees are an abomination. My daughter wants to go to uni in Scotland where it is different - although not for that reason,as I suspect you have to be resident to qualify for the no-fees dealio.

In quite a few European countries tuition is free for domestic students, or just a few hundred Euros per term for international students. Sweden and Finland offer free education for every student, foreign or not!

[PinkTribble]

If obese people shouldn't be entitled to NHS medical services neither should smokers, binge drinkers, drug users, etc etc

I dont see how you can debate whether university is worth it or not, its subjective. A more interesting debate would be, why isn't university free like in other European countries?

I agree with your first point and I say this as a smoker, former binge drinker and drug user.

Your second point is extremely valid also.

[Andrew80]

Education should be free to anyone who wants to avail.
Obesity does need tackling however sometimes the support mechanisms arent there all the time.

Have to add in - Love the reaction of Chris to the subject http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/chrismoyles/ lol - poor Aled had some tea splash back lol!

[bbb]

chatroom for todays show then?

[Ezza]

I'm rubbish at the whole writing down what I want to say, but please bear with me.

Speaking from personal experience, university is so worth it. For those on here who don't know, I'm at uni training to be a primary school teacher. I nearly didn't make it, cause I screwed up my exams, and failed, but somehow, by some massive miracle, I've ended up doing a course I love. For those who know anything about my personal circumstances, you will know that being here has meant the world to me. It's given me a chance to be who I want to be, without being restricted by so many different things, and for these reasons alone, this is why I think university is worth it. I know that not everyone will be in the same situation, or even understand why I'm in the situation I'm in, but basically, in a nutshell, university gives people an opportunity to start afresh, something I needed so badly.

[bbb]

I'm rubbish at the whole writing down what I want to say, but please bear with me.

Speaking from personal experience, university is so worth it. For those on here who don't know, I'm at uni training to be a primary school teacher. I nearly didn't make it, cause I screwed up my exams, and failed, but somehow, by some massive miracle, I've ended up doing a course I love. For those who know anything about my personal circumstances, you will know that being here has meant the world to me. It's given me a chance to be who I want to be, without being restricted by so many different things, and for these reasons alone, this is why I think university is worth it. I know that not everyone will be in the same situation, or even understand why I'm in the situation I'm in, but basically, in a nutshell, university gives people an opportunity to start afresh, something I needed so badly.

you can not be any worse than me with spelling and the whole typeing/wirteing down what your trying to say hehe

and cool thats good to know and brill for you good luck with everything we all can do anything if we put or hearts and minds into it

[Gareth]

Have to add in - Love the reaction of Chris to the subject http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/chrismoyles/ lol - poor Aled had some tea splash back lol!
Haha! That's hilarious!! I also loved Rachel kind of telling him off for doing it!

[Ajayrious]

Haha! That's hilarious!! I also loved Rachel kind of telling him off for doing it!

Yeah that video is hilarious.. Rachel was being proper Mum-like with her scolding of Chris for that.

When i first saw that, totally unexpected, I could not laugh harder, i would of done exactly what chris did, if i had of been drinking tea at the time.

[Andrew80]

I really enjoyed tonights show... both topics. I really enjoyed the obesity debate. Well done to Clare from Steps if she halved her weight (I need to do the same lol!)

[Samual]

The university debate was fairly interesting. The debate on obesity and health services, was frankly ridiculous

[Yudster]

Ezza makes some very important points I think. Notwithstanding that university is a requirement for the job she wants to do, the experience of uni - leaving home, discovering life, discovering yourself - it can be really valuable for a lot of people.

[Aled]

The university debate was fairly interesting. The debate on obesity and health services, was frankly ridiculous

How so Samual?

(Please be honest!)

[Samual]

How so Samual?

(Please be honest!)

The whole point of the NHS is to provide free healthcare to all British citizens. Nitpicking at who and who should not be entitled to these services defeats the point of the NHS. You may as well have debated a proposal to kill all OAPs because they're a drain on society. :rolleyes:

I thought it was pretty damn insensitive at times too!

[Yudster]

I fully agree with Samual - but the reality is that the NHS is underfunded and overstretched, and decisions need to be made about what it can and can't deliver. How the hell does it go about this? Whose treatment does it discontinue? Which procedures does it stop doing? The most expensive ones? The least important ones? How do you make these judgements?

Samual is being beautifully idealistic and I applaud him for this, I completely agree with that view in theory. But reality doesn't support it. I don't think marginalising certain groups of people is the answer at all, which is basically what was being debated - but it has to all be reconciled somehow.

[Andrew80]

At the end of the day it was what the name suggested, a debate and no matter how far fetched or radical someones opinion is it is still their opinion.

The NHS has some really tough decisions, however fundamentally it is a fantastic ideology where there will be free healthcare for all regardless for class, creed or breeding. The decisions will be tough, should the NHS be semi private when you are employed and earning over £X - but who is to say that because you earn over £x means that you are any better off than someone earning £y. Is that currently what happens through the Taxation system. Is the government really investing Tax in the correct places - for example the reason we Tax cigarettes is not just for income, it is because there are negitive externalities on that which do not just effect the user. Is the tax on Cigarettes being invested in the healthcare system? Should it be?

Same scenario if we have a Fat Tax? Would the government use the money correctly?

Is the bigger issue that we dont trust the government to invest our money correctly?

Idealism is what the healthcare system was built on, sio I applaud Samual, however I agree with Yuds, something has to be done. I am overweight, obese I suppose, but I pay as much towards healthcare as anyone who works and takes drugs, abuses their body with alcohol, abuse with cigarettes, so I expect the healthcare to help me if I get sick.

Should self-harmers have to pay more for medical care? (I appreciate its a smaller proportion of the population) Should alcoholics? Should drug addicts?

Any how those are my musings..........


A xxxx

[PinkTribble]

Should self-harmers have to pay more for medical care? (I appreciate its a smaller proportion of the population) Should alcoholics? Should drug addicts?



No, I shouldn't! :081:

[Yudster]

Purely out of interest, do you think that if you did have to, it would make you think twice?

[Ajayrious]

Purely out of interest, do you think that if you did have to, it would make you think twice?

It would make me think twice about getting sick. Not about whether i have a Chinese or not :)

[Yudster]

I was thinking more specifically of the self-harming issue really. I know self harming is a very complex matter - in fact anorexia, overeating, smoking, drug and alcohol abuse etc are all a form of self-harm really - but specific, bottom-line self harming - if you thought that you would have to pay up front if you got an infection, or went too far and needed treatment for the injuries (I'm not talking about treatment for the illness itself, just the results of it) - would that influence you?

I can say from my own experience that I think with things like smoking, drugs, and overeating I really don't think it would have an influence on most people. Self harming I know very little about though.

[bbb]

I was thinking more specifically of the self-harming issue really. I know self harming is a very complex matter - in fact anorexia, overeating, smoking, drug and alcohol abuse etc are all a form of self-harm really - but specific, bottom-line self harming - if you thought that you would have to pay up front if you got an infection, or went too far and needed treatment for the injuries (I'm not talking about treatment for the illness itself, just the results of it) - would that influence you?

I can say from my own experience that I think with things like smoking, drugs, and overeating I really don't think it would have an influence on most people. Self harming I know very little about though.

quite intresting but from my point of view I don`t think it would stop anyone or most people from self harming i know when i was doing it I was past careing if i got a infection or went to far with it.It`s very complex and hard to explain but it does for a short time take your mind of your problems and gives you a small bit of control over whats going on(in a way) and in a way ones who have stoped with the cutting still self harm by keeping there feelings to them selfs and keeping to them selfs even if they are surounded by other people they will still feel alone and keep to them selfs

[Yudster]

"Control" rings a bell. Like a lot of people I have a constant battle with what our American friends would call my "inappropriate relationship with food" - and the whole binge/starve cycle is absolutely about control - losing, it, taking it, losing it again.

We're all an absolute mess, aren't we?!

[bbb]

"Control" rings a bell. Like a lot of people I have a constant battle with what our American friends would call my "inappropriate relationship with food" - and the whole binge/starve cycle is absolutely about control - losing, it, taking it, losing it again.

We're all an absolute mess, aren't we?!

indeed we are:081: